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Under the Hood
Pelvic floor physical therapist Dr. Alexandra DiGrado and sex & couples therapist Dr. Rebecca Howard Eudy get real about sexual health, intimacy, and the stuff we didn't learn about our body in school. From the clitoral hood to parenthood, no topic is off-limits. Each episode blends a combined 30 years of clinical experience with compassionate advice and humor, giving you trusted knowledge, practical tools, and the confidence to take charge of your health and relationships.
Under the Hood
Episode 45: Get It Out of Your Head - Time Management for Real Life with Kelly Nolan
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Yes, time management and the mental load are everywhere right now, and so it’s easy to tune out yet another conversation about how to do more with less. But we promise you, this episode isn’t a list of productivity hacks or a scorecard for who’s doing more.
Our special guest today is Kelly Nolan, an attorney-turned-time-management strategist. Kelly left her career as a patent litigator to build the Bright Method, a time-management system for working women that started as something she needed herself after burning out. Now, as a mom of two young kids and married to someone with an unpredictable work schedule, she uses the same flexible system to manage the everyday demands of work, kids, home, hobbies, and everything else life brings.
Sex and relationship therapist Dr. Rebecca Howard Eudy and pelvic floor physical therapist Dr. Alex DiGrado talk with Kelly about getting all the invisible work out of your head and onto the calendar so there’s more room for rest, connection, and the things you actually want to do with your life.
Note: Dr. Alex DiGrado purchased and completed Kelly Nolan’s course independently. This is not a paid partnership or sponsored episode.
What you'll learn:
- Why each partner in a couple often thinks they're doing more than half
- Why household roles fall into place early on in parenthood, and why a "one-year shakeup" can help see if they still make sense as your kids get older
- A concept from Brene Brown that reframed how Kelly saw her frustration with her husband's free time
- How to divide tasks so they're fully off your plate, not just delegated to someone else while you still track it all in your head.
Tune in if you've ever thought:
- "I was running around all day, so why does it feel like I got absolutely nothing done?”
- "Why did I just tell my boss I'd have this project done by tomorrow? He didn't even ask for it that soon."
- “Seriously? You need me to figure that out for you, too?" when your partner asks what they can do to help.
- “I need more time for myself, but I honestly don’t see where it would fit.”
Helpful resources
- Kelly Nolan's website
- The Bright Method Podcast
- Instagram: @_kellynolan_
- Fair Play by Eve Rodsky
- -Study Dr. Rebecca referenced: A.V. Whillans, E.W. Dunn, P. Smeets, R. Bekkers, & M.I. Norton, Buying time promotes happiness, Proc. Natl. Acad. Sci. U.S.A. 114 (32) 8523-8527, https://doi.org/10.1073/pnas.1706541114 (2017).
- Find a pelvic floor PT near you: pelvicrehab.com or Pelvic Global Directory
- Parents in Love: A Guide to Great Sex After Kids by Dr. Rebecca Howard Eudy
Connect with us:
Dr. Rebecca Howard Eudy
Website: rebeccaeudy.com
Instagram: @rebeccahowardeudy
Newsletter: Parents in Love Substack
Dr. Alexandra DiGrado
Website: bostonpelvicpt.com
Instagram: @bostonpelvicpt
Newsletter: Under the Hood
Under the Hood Podcast
Instagram: @underthehooddocs
Website: underthehoodpod.com
YouTube: @underthehooddocs
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Welcome to Under the Hood. I'm Dr. Alex DeGrotto, your pelvic floor physical therapist. And I'm Dr. Rebecca Howard Uti, your sex and relationship therapist.
SPEAKER_02Hi, everyone. Hi, Alex. Hi. We have a special guest today, somebody that I've admired for quite some time, and I've also done her full course. And I'm gonna have Kelly introduce herself because she is such a multifaceted person, and I want to hear all the aspects of who she is. So, Kelly, please introduce yourself to our guests.
SPEAKER_00Well, hi, and it is so fun to be here. I so enjoy your podcast and so a real honor. My name is Kelly Nolan. I was a former patent litigator, and I left a lot, I think it's almost eight years ago now, to teach women the bright method, which is what I call my realistic, flexible time management system that is built for the professional working woman. And I have two little girls, eight and five. I guess they're not so little anymore. Um, I have my original baby, my black lab, Olive, and I am married to an ER physician. So every day looks different in our house based on his wacky schedule.
SPEAKER_02Yes. Okay, well, that was one of the things that attracted us, especially because we talk so much about relationships and relationship dynamics and all of that. So it's okay.
SPEAKER_01So Kelly, I'm doing a little math here. If you left law eight years ago to do this and you have an eight-year-old, like, how did you choose to make this career shift? This is really huge.
SPEAKER_00Yes. So I I loved practicing law in Boston. I practiced in Boston for five years before I met my husband in the middle of that, and then he got placed out in San Diego for residency. So we moved out to San Diego, took the bar again, was practicing there, and did not enjoy law there. And I had read lean in when that was the rage. And I'm, you know, I don't like buy all of it, but I remember one part of it that was like lean in before you go out on leave. So you're excited to come back. And I was like, I already don't want to go to work. So I'm not gonna want to work if I have a baby. And we were trying to start a family, and so I was kind of looking for the exits and trying to figure out, but I mean, I'd wanted to be a lawyer since sixth grade, no idea what else I wanted to do. And eventually just decided to leave, gave notice. I think I gave like five, I ended up working like five weeks because I, you know, I had no next step planned, but I kind of did, but it was flexible. I wanted to start my own business, gave notice, left, and five days later we found out we were pregnant. So I think probably the stress reduction and all of that came into play. I mean, I have no idea, but that's what I think in my head. And so, yes, I which was kind of great because I flailed around when I started my business for that period of pregnancy. I did a lot of different things and I had honed in on oh, people are actually interested in learning this weird time management system I have, right towards the end of that. And so then I had the baby, you know, and then around I think six months started coming back. She was a trickier baby. And then, but when I came back, I had the clarity of what I was trying to build. It still takes, you know, a while to build it, but at least I had the clarity of what I was trying to do.
SPEAKER_01Well, that's so brave to leave something for and not know what you're going into, but the the that like creative space where you actually have the space to think like, what do I want to do? So if I'm understanding right, this was something that you were already using. You had made this bright method, you were using it yourself.
SPEAKER_00Yes. And just to clarify, it is also very privileged to be able to leave with, you know, be on healthcare with my husband. Like I could be on his healthcare. I had had savings. There were, you know, I just want to acknowledge that poor. I totally get that not everybody can do that. I also will say I had taken a major pay cut from Boston, and that's easier to leave. And the there's a power of being that miserable that will just push you out when you're not necessarily being logical. So like I just want to caveat it with all that. So, yes, when I was practicing as a new first-year associate in Boston, I mean, I'd been decently organized up until that point in my life. You know, I'd, you know, it got me. The systems I had used, probably created in like middle school with my paper planners, had gotten me very far. And so it was a little confusing when in my first year of practicing law, I started feeling really overwhelmed. I was, you know, you're working for a lot of different people in a law firm, managing all these cases, managing more information and documents and deadlines and everything than I ever had before. And the stakes are really high. In addition, I just wasn't enjoying my downtime at all. I felt like I was, I had to constantly be doing things to like have a shot at getting everything done in time. And I would, I just have these memories of sitting in like Met bar in Boston talking to a friend, and like suddenly mid-story, you know, my brain's over here thinking about did I do that thing? How am I gonna remember to do that thing? I need to remember, don't forget, don't forget, and like ruminating on that. And so I was just kind of struggling and was like, this cannot be what adulthood is supposed to feel like.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it's so relatable though. I feel like any one of us, especially those of us who are gravitated towards your course, have felt that way many times.
SPEAKER_00Totally. And I think it's it's really confusing when you've particularly if you've been decently organized. I don't mean perfect, but like decently organized, and suddenly you don't feel on top of it anymore. But you're like, the system got me so far, so it must be me. Like I, like there's something wrong with me now. I'm not working hard enough or disciplined enough or whatever. And so, but I just again, the power of misery. I was like, I reject this is how life will feel. And so I started looking for time management help, nothing really stuck, and then over time started building out this calendar system. But I thought that it was something that was catching me up to where everybody else was. And so then I just kept using it and kept practicing. And even when I left my left law, it didn't even occur to me that people would want to learn that. I was doing more like organizing in homes, which I'm terrible at. And that was part of my flailing. And like I started doing work to find that out. Yeah, yeah. You're like, this looks fun, but you're not good at it. And then, but then through the process of helping with like office flow organization with some clients, they saw my calendar and they were like, This is interesting. And I was like, really? Okay, okay. So that's how I got there.
SPEAKER_02Wow, that's so great. And I also think it's really cool because becoming a mom, at least. So I started my business when Tess was three months old. And so it was just that clarifying time in life where you're like, What do I actually want to spend my time doing? Because my time is so precious. And you think you think you're busy before, and then afterwards you're like, oh yeah, yeah. So it has to be I was allowed to sleep before. Yeah, yeah. And it has to be something, or in like you said, when you have that opportunity, because again, I was also on Paul's health insurance.
SPEAKER_00Yep.
SPEAKER_02It's such an amazing time to find out what you're truly passionate about. Yeah. Absolutely.
SPEAKER_01So you talk a lot about mental load. We just watched a video of you on your Instagram, which was great, where you have a I would encourage what we can link to it, but the the picture and the overflowing water glass. So can you tell, can you talk to us a little bit about mental load? As a couples therapist, I this is like so much of what people want to talk about, what holds them back from being able to connect with each other is that mental load. Often, in my experience, it's one person who feels like they're holding a lot of it.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely. I I think mental load is so interesting because it's such a point of contention, even you know, just internally, like blaming yourself for not doing enough at the end of the day while discounting all that mental load type stuff that we do. So, one of the first things I like to do with clients, just to back up a second, I'm a big fan of a digital calendar. I think it's really important to tie everything we do to time, in part to set our expectations for ourselves in a realistic way. And one of the first things we do is get clear on what are all those invisible to-dos that make up mental load that, you know, are those point and contentions of couples or also causing everything to feel more scrambly than we want in life. And so we lay them all out and simplifying that, it can be more complicated for people. But I will say that people often see it all laid out, like the showering and getting ready, doing bed and bath time with kids, all the meal prep, planning the meals, you know, going to even the grocery order, making the meals, walking your dog, homework with older kids, like all the things, and there's so much more. When you actually see it laid out, it can be a real wake-up call for people internally as individuals. But what I will say is then it allows you to make changes and identify issues, and in terms of a couple, show the other partner in a visible way all that you're doing. Cause I think that there's kind of a double whammy of it's invisible, so the other partner doesn't see it. And also we aren't even clear as individuals how much there is to deal with. And so it's really hard to have a productive conversation with the other person when we're kind of just being like, I'm drowning, I'm overwhelmed, I need help. But there's a lack of specificity and a lack of clarity even inside or for ourselves of what we want help with, what would help us? And so if you can first lay it out in a calendar and see, whoa, okay, these are all the things and not just line item tasks, but how much time they take, how repetitive they are, how often they show up in a calendar, and for yourself, be like, this is what's going on. And also now let me problem solve it. What are the three, or what you know, I'm arbitrary number. What are the things that I would love to hand off to my partner? And then I can go to them with that conversation, not just I'm overwhelmed, but let me show you all I'm doing. And if you could do these three things, that would be really helpful. Eve Rodsky, obviously, fair play. She has this great quote where I'm gonna butcher this, but she basically says you take a heterosexual couple and both individuals think they're doing more than half of the fair share. And the problem is, is that the typically, and again, this is hugely generalizations, but typically the male thinks they're doing more than half because they see like a pond of things and they're like, I'm doing more than half of those things. Where the woman is like, there is an ocean of things. You're doing a drop in it, but there's just a lack of understanding of this, they're not on the same page of what we're looking at. And so if you can make things visual in this way, and also if, you know, have them make their things visual on the calendar in their way and then have a discussion of this is the pot we're actually looking at and how we can divvy it up, that's great. What I want to caveat here though is, you know, I in an ideal world, I'd love to divvy up work evenly between partners. In my family, and I think in many families, that's just not possible. My husband's an ER physician, he's gone all the time. When he is gone, he is gone. And so I've had to learn a lot around how do we still divide this up equitably in a way that I feel good and I can go into that more. But essentially things like figuring out what he can do. It's not time-sensitive stuff, but he can pay all the bills, he can do these things. I don't like relinquishing all finances. That's not what I mean. But just, you know, the daycare bill, health he he pays all health care bills, all those things that can give and take a week or so. It also doesn't mean I have to do it all. So we get really clear on what we outsource. We've outsourced different things at periods of time to so that it's not just because he can't help me doesn't mean I need to do it all. We've moved near my family so that I have more support in that process. There are a lot of ways to go about this. And the final thing I'll say on that is also making it visual, even if your partner can't fully help, the appreciation he has for what I do goes very far, even in those times when he can't help. Like to have your partner come home after a 12-hour shift and thank you for holding it down goes really far in those scenarios. And so I just think there's a I will say the majority of the women I work with have partners who really do want to show up well. They just aren't seeing it. And we can debate the principles of that and what's right or wrong. But to me, it's like, do you want to be right or do you want to be happy? And I want to get women's support. And this is a way to do that.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. One of the things that I hear from clients that their their partner with the very best intentions will say things like, What can I do to help you? Yes. And it's like, oh, yikes, that is not the sorry guys, that's not the right question. Like when you say, What can I do to help you? Already you're acknowledging without meaning to how much of the mental load that person is holding. And I also see, and I'm sure that, you know, I'm I'm curious on your take on this, but one of the barriers, I think, especially this shows up a lot for new moms, where they are overwhelmed, they're doing a lot, they don't want their partner to say, What can I do to help you? Because that implies it's all on my plate and you're gonna help me. Yes. Which does not feel supportive. Yep. It also requires that person to think of what could this person do to help me, and then give them a task, they end up feeling like they are like managing help as opposed to really having a partner. But one of the biggest challenges that I see with that is that many times the person who's carrying more of the mental load, which is often the female partner in a heterosexual couple, actually wants help but doesn't want to give up control. Yes. And that's really hard. They want things done, but they want them done in a certain way. And uh that is a very challenging dynamic to navigate from a relational perspective, because over time, even a partner who deeply wants to help and who is very invested may start to feel frustrated because they help and then they do it wrong, and that's discouraging.
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_01Totally.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. I I might interject just to say I relinquished bath time when the kids were little, and it was soup to nuts buying the soap, making sure there were clean towels. I didn't go into the bathroom, I didn't check the water temperature, you know, I didn't see what they were doing in the bath, that the toys were appropriate or whether they had mold or not, even though I thought about those things. They're like squeezing their production in their mouth, you know. And so it was really what you're saying is so true. And it was really hard for me at first to let it go. And then once I had those 20 minutes to myself after dinner and I refused to clean the dishes or anything, I would just sit on the couch and let this is when the kids were little, you know, and let him do it all. And it made such a huge difference because he owned it from soup to nuts. And I think that's something, Kelly, you do really well, is that they've got to own it. It's on them, and then you're not mentally holding it anymore. And so having that be really clear ahead of time is good. It doesn't obviously relinquish I was the one that said, I want you to take over bath time from soup to nuts, and that means everything.
SPEAKER_01But I mean, I did the same thing when my kids were really young. I find bedtime to be like the most exhaust. Like in terms of mental load, yeah, heaviness. I'm a I'm a morning person. I'd rather get up in the like the bedtime, it's like every minute of that time is so heavy for me. And so I really wanted Lee, my husband, to help me. And he was willing, but he had suggestions about how he wanted to do things. I think I've told I've think I've shared this on the podcast before, but I'll tell you, Kelly. He does not like pajamas. So I don't have to cover this. You're not gonna tell us morrified. Okay, tell us, tell us, tell us. Maybe the listeners remember, not that we have people who are following every episode. Yeah, yeah. Anyway. So he was like, Yeah, yeah, I'll do bedtime. But I don't want to do pajamas. It's a pain in the ass to get them on. And then and then you have to get them dressed in the morning. It makes our mornings harder. So he wanted to put them in. I mean, seriously, everybody hold on to their chests. He wanted to put them into their daytime clothes after bathtime. And I mean, aside from like how cute kids look in pajamas, I was like, I did really have to pull myself aside and like have a talking to about like, okay, you can either have help or you can be a t a control freak and say how it's gonna go. And so they still don't wear pajamas.
SPEAKER_02And they wear clothes for the next day. They a lot of people do that. Wear the clothes for the next day. They put them on the floor. I'm not horrified. I'm not horrified either. I'm not horrified.
SPEAKER_01Well, you guys, I was a little horrified. But hey, you know what? I was like, okay, I I can if if I'm gonna expect him to do this and only he has to have say in how he wants to do it.
SPEAKER_00Definitely. I I really I can see I am I am not horrified because I know families do it. I also though empath empathize so much with the feeling that you it's just like gosh, being a new mom is so hard. And it's still hard, even with older kids where you feel like also the way you're doing things, even the implication that it's wrong is so cutting. That can be weird, and then to to lose that control. I think, man, that new motherhood, that first year, that was like probably the hardest year of my life. I had a kid who also never took a bottle, so I was like tethered to the house despite much, much, much trying. Didn't sleep through the night until the first year, all these things. And I I probably had postpartum anxiety. I don't know what's where the what was just normal life without sleep and like what that would have caused, but I probably had postpartum anxiety and didn't even know that was a thing then. I knew about postpartum depression. So I just empathize with the new moms out there. When also your brain is such a whirl, too. And the for me at least, my executive functioning, like my real critical thinking and decision making just wasn't there in the same way that it is now. And so I just I'm a little bit rambling, but my point is it's such a hard period of time, and you're dealing with so much new and a complete loss of time freedom for many people and a lack of control over this thing that is so high stakes in your life. It's it's really hard. And I and I so I empathize with anyone who feels that way. I think what again, making things visual and trying to get as much out of your head as possible does really help, you know, like making all the things visual now of what you do for the child, um, helping yourself out. You know, I had calendared reminders to like uh switch, like update the diaper bag that I would take out of house because like sometimes it's empty and later you're like, Yeah, you know, update a disaster. Yeah, even the changing tables to your changing table in your house to have to put new diapers in and wipes in and that kind of stuff. Helping with the mental load helps you at least get the logistics out of your head as much, especially when that head is very tired. What I will also say is two more things on the like giving control over. I don't think anyone's doing anything wrong when they feel all these ways. I think it helps when you are humbled a bit sometimes that sometimes another way can be better, or your way is not perfect. It's not fun to experience, but it's good in letting go of control. There's a story I read in a book about a woman who always did the diaper changes because she wanted it done a certain way. And they were having people at their house. So the husband's like, I'm gonna go change the diaper and took the baby away. And she was very anxious about it and all this kind of stuff, and finally went in there and was like, see, it's not done well enough because this and this and this and this and all these kind of things. And he's like, I haven't changed the diaper yet. And it's like, okay, you know, like those moments where you're just like, or I had a I had a friend whose son, tiny baby, fell off the uh diaper changing table. And she was like, I had literally leaned down to go into a different drawer to get a pair of socks. I she's like, I cannot tell you how fast it happened. And she's like, I'm so glad it happened with me first versus my husband because she's like, I would have named him. And she's like, and I having it happen to me first showed me just how fast these things can happen. And so I think that it's hard when you're a new mom and you haven't had those experiences yet, always to then be able to realize, okay, I'm not perfect and that's okay. That still makes me a good mom. And the other person can do things differently, and the baby's gonna be just fine. And and but it's hard. It's really hard. And the one thing I and this is not science backed or anything, but helped me a lot is having conversations before the baby comes, when the baby's little of at a year, it's gonna we have to intentionally shake up the Divvy of labor. Yeah. I think what happens is those first months, there is a difference. Role. If you're breastfeeding or all these things, there just is a different role, especially also if your partner goes back to work sooner than you, then these habits get started of how the labor is divvied up. And it doesn't change, like it sets it up. And we don't think, hey, we need to have a check-in on this when things shift because things shift gradually and all this kind of stuff. That I encourage people around a year and talk about it before, have a one-year shakeup where you're like, okay, the baby's eating solids now. It's not just all on me. We're both back at work, like all you know, and you can do it earlier if if you know it makes sense. But being like, we don't just inertia follow the things that started when the baby was two months old. We we intentionally are going to shake it up and talking about that ahead of time, I think, can really help reset later in life when it can be more equitable and even.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, setting those expectations. Yeah. I remember early on when our kids were really I I like going back and wanting to, you know, go to a yoga class or something like that, and leaving Lee, who is very involved, but leaving him with the two kids for the first time. And I remember him sort of expressing like a little bit of nervousness around not doing it right. Like, well, what if they both start crying? And I had this moment where I was like, they both of them are crying with me all the time. Yeah. Like sometimes I start crying too. Yeah, totally. You know, like, okay, if they start crying and you feel overwhelmed, you can cry. That's okay. Yeah. I'll be home in an hour. You know? So it's like, it doesn't the to so to your point, Kelly, it's like, it doesn't always go perfectly when we're holding all of the mental load. We cannot, no matter how hard we try, we may feel like we're getting it wrong. And and honestly, the more we try to get it right, the more we probably are feeling like we're not getting it right.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So tightening that grip and not letting anybody else in, it's like, okay, I'm not getting it right all the time. They do, they cry all the time, the two of them, when it's just me. And what do I do? I don't know. I try to snack, I bounce them, I yeah, they need an opportunity to figure out. I don't know. Yeah, we go down for a nap. So, so being able to loosen that a little bit and and that feeling of if it doesn't happen in this certain way, it's gonna be a disaster. It's like it probably won't.
SPEAKER_02One thing that's coming up. Oh, go ahead, please. Kelly. Oh, all I was gonna say was one thing that's was coming up for me is sort of experimenting with what I delegate. You know, some things I delegated and then realized actually that's really in my wheelhouse. And there's certain things that he does great and actually much better than I could do. Oh, yeah, that's really sort of learning each other and being like, okay, well, you know what? We tried that and now we're gonna, I'm gonna take that back because I am in healthcare. So, you know, I was having him take all the kids take the kids to all their healthcare appointments, and I realized, you know what, he actually doesn't really know the questions to ask or how to advocate in our healthcare system, which is very complicated and kind of effed up in many. Yeah, you know, he doesn't realize that you have to really push in those appointments to get the care your kids need. And so I said, Oh, okay, I gave that and now I'm gonna take it back and give you something else because I do think it's that sort of experimenting with what each person is naturally good at or what they like to do.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And and and kind of to your point, on the flip, you know, my husband's in healthcare, but he's also in emergency. So he's like, You dine? No? Okay, you're good. Whereas I'm like, okay, I'm gonna be the one taking you to pediatrician appointments because I one, I'm just that is an area I want control on. You know, I want to know. I want to know all the details. I want to advocate, and I'm the lawyer. I'd actually like to do that. Yeah, you're the lawyer, right? You know, he does, he's it's funny that the advocacy comes easier to me, I think, than him. And so it's just, but to your point, and it but it also, even if there wasn't a real skill value, I have to own that I actually just really want to be there. Like that's something I want. And so I can't be then angry later when I'm the one who has to be there. Yeah. And speaking, there's one, this is a bit of a tangent, but it was really helpful for me at one point with motherhood. Is I read, I was reading him, it was a Brene Brown thing about what resentment actually is.
SPEAKER_02Well, the word resentment was coming up a million times when you were just talking. Because I would have been so resentful that like that he had the gall to be like, what if they both cry? It's like, yeah, no shit, dude. You know what I mean? Like, what do you mean? They both cry.
SPEAKER_01You haven't had that much experience with them that you don't I well said essentially that, and I was not that patient. I think I was like threw it over my shoulder as I was like slamming the door.
SPEAKER_02The word resentment is exactly what I was thinking in. Well, I left. I think you did. Yeah, yeah. Because you just did it.
SPEAKER_01I get it. You're anyway. You did it. Good job. Okay, sorry, Kelly. Goodbye.
SPEAKER_00No, no, yes, we do. Well, there is. I mean, I think I think early motherhood comes with a lot of resentment. And there was something that she said, it was a book I was reading of hers, and she set talks about how resentment is actually envy. And oh, yeah, so true. And it's because I was resentful. You know, my husband was really into surfing when we had a baby, and he would do these like social things, or he would go to a work conference, but he's out, he's out at a bar, you know, and it's like it was I was so resentful. And I realized the answer wasn't demanding he not do things. Excuse me. The answer was I need to incorporate more of that in my life. So true. And and that really helped push me to do things like that, where I'm not, I I'm not a big hobby person. Like I'm not gonna go out and like find a surfing equivalent, but I am gonna go out of town and see friends and be able to do that, which also then helps him see how hard it is and up the appreciation again. So like there's a beautiful element of also, again, not when the baby, I mean, if you can do it when the baby's young, do it. But don't also like again plan for it later at another stage of I'm gonna start incorporating more of this in my life. And it might feel weird at first, but it's gonna have so many awesome benefits. So it's been very helpful for me.
SPEAKER_01Okay, so this is really hitting on one of the things that I am super curious about how you help people navigate. So, okay, forgive me because I may bumble through this question a little bit. We have there's the things that you want control over. So for me, it's like the food. I like cooking. If I handed that over to Lee, I don't think I'd like what we ate. I I find it to be relaxing. I don't want to outsource that. Yeah, I have done grocery orders, but even like picking out the produce and stuff, it's not something that I find particularly onerous. I sort of like to do that. Yeah, you enjoy it. I enjoy it. It's not always. I mean, I don't, it feels like a chore, but it it it's it would be hard for me to pass that off. But doing something else, like I don't know, folding the laundry or you know, cleaning the house, for instance, those I I can do them, but it feels like a chore. It's not something that I particularly enjoy. So I'm wondering how you help people to navigate those sorts of things. And and it it's almost like what is the heaviest load? So for me, that bed, those bedtime hours, those are such a heavy load. It's so heavy. Not so much anymore because my kids are 10 and 12, so they sort of, you know, it's it's easier now. But so there's some things that may seem like, oh, that's no big deal. It's not that much time, but it feels really heavy. And other things that may take a lot of time, but don't feel as heavy. So I am hearing the first thing that you do is you sort of get everything visual so you can see it all. And then do you have some way that you can help people to weigh like what feels and what feels really heavy to me may not feel really heavy to my partner. So there may also be sort of a natural divide there.
SPEAKER_00I think that, you know, it's not something that I formally have a framework for, but I work individually with clients a lot. Like just when they're when I I run a group program, but I work one-on-one with anyone who wants to email me and talk things out. And we often do loom like exchanges back and forth. So it's like staggered conversation. And that comes up a fair amount where I find it very helpful first to again get the awareness of what's excuse me, what's going on, and then think through what what would in an ideal world I get rid of off of here. And I'm right there with that.
SPEAKER_02You are so good at that. And also the other thing, and and I I really want to hear what you want to say, but just in case was the the reality of how much time each thing takes, too. Yes, in terms of being willing to get rid of stuff, especially stuff you don't like doing or you're not that drains your energy. I felt like you were so good about that, Kelly, because it it really made me see how long the stuff I do takes, but it also made me see what drains my energy because you talk a lot about high energy times and low energy times and what to do during those times. So I actually think you really, even in your formal setting, I think you really do do that. Oh, good. Please continue with your individual stuff too.
SPEAKER_00I need my like hype squad here too. Yeah. I appreciate it. No, and so I it I think that is it's a really good point of how much time things take. Because I I and I do not knock fair play at all. If it works for you, great. It can be helpful to lay out the time that it takes to do all of those cards as well, so that you really see it. Because yeah, something you might be like, I don't mind doing this once a week, but when you see it's five times a week, you're like, yeah, I do not want to spend this much time, especially when you to your point, Alex, like when it's in the calendar, it's not just the amount of time it takes, it's also the amount of time, like other things you could be using that time for. Yes. And that's where that math is. Yes. And so that's where I think first of all, it's nice to have a conversation of do you actually enjoy doing this like your to your partner? Or or or could like can what can you do this if you enjoy it or don't mind it? Because I really dislike it. That's one element. Another element is even internally for yourself is redefining what success in an area looks like. Like some I've had a client who it was really important to her to cook home cooked meals for her family. But we talked about does that mean that it's every night? Does that mean it has to be five nights nights a week? Could it be a meal delivery kit that's okay two nights a week and then the other three nights or something else? Like getting flexible with okay, these two nights a week are really hard for us. What do we do here where all the other nights I do cook? Like, they're just ways to kind of so often we're all or nothing thinkers. And I think that there can be like a balance in there as well. And then, as I mentioned, and again, there's like financial wiggle room here, is if you can't outsource it or I mean, sorry, if you can't share it with a partner, are there ways to outsource? So I went through a period for about three years when my youngest was really little. So I had two kids, and you have the little one that you have to like look at all the time, watch all the time so they don't hurt themselves and all this kind of stuff. That's we did look into, and again, I live in the Midwest, so things are maybe different. You know, we had someone come in and cook for us once they would come in on Monday, cook four meals. She was amazing. She would, you know, box up, like tupper up four meals and put them in the fridge, clean, do the grocery shopping and the cleanup. And it was amazing. And I felt really kind of embarrassed about it, even like within my family. And my mom once stayed with the girls for I think it was like four days, and she would she and she was like, Thank gosh for that. She's like, I would have eaten eggs every single night had we not have that food. And I'm like, it is so much to have little kids and trying to be juggle or trying to juggle all this. And that was just an example of for me, I don't mind folding laundry. I actually don't mind tidying up the house. I just listen to audiobooks and putter around, and it's enjoyable for me. I don't like cooking. I've never been good at it. It's always been my weakness. And so that's where I was like, okay, I really don't want to spend this much time. It is so much time to cook every week, and it's not enjoyable to me. And I'd rather be doing other things. My husband can't do it because of this, you know, situation of just his job. And so let's look for creative solutions outside of how to like get this off my plate. But it's also knowing yourself, because to your point, everyone has different feelings of what they enjoyed and not joined. There's so there's no like across the board right way to do it. But, you know, having a home manager or something like that, those are things that people do to give more breathing space into our days because the whole premise of the Bright Method is we do have limited hours. We do have limited energy. There is so much vying for that time. Let's make sure our plans are realistic. And if it's not gonna fit and there's no creative way in our home to share that, then let's we gotta look for other solutions.
SPEAKER_01It's there's some interesting research. I think I read it in the New York Times. They cited this study, which we can probably find and link to. Uh, but as I remember it, it was looking at the highest value on what you can spend your money on. So like they looked, it looked at possessions, like things that you might want, experiences, which historically I have heard, oh, it's the experiences that are the thing that's like the highest value that you spend your money on, like a great vacation, and it gives you the most happiness. But actually, what this study said is that spending money on getting something off your plate that you don't want to do, like for you, it was cooking. For me, it's cleaning. For some people, it might be mowing the lawn. Like, so if there is something that you do that you really it's a chore, you don't like doing it, spending money on getting yourself more time, you get time back by spending money, that actually is the thing that brings the most consistent joy into people's life on an ongoing basis. Oh wow, that's cool. I think it's a good thing. I found it to be transformative. Yeah. And actually, I right around this time that I read this article, I had this conversation with my neighbor. I was at the time, my it was right after COVID, and my kids were just back in school, and I felt like I have all the time in the world. Of course I can clean the house. Like, of course I can do this. But I would spend like a day changing the sheets, doing all the things. And I didn't have time to to keep things organized, like to make sure that the cubbies were organized, or to maybe, you know, purge the closet totally or to read, you know, the junk drawer is constantly creeping up. I'm not a naturally organized person. So this really takes me some time. And I had a hard time thinking about how I would outsource that on an ongoing basis. And so for me, I was like, oh, if I don't spend the time cleaning, like doing that, like mopping the floors, cleaning the bathrooms, if I outsource that, then it gives me back some time to do something that I might not, you know, I might not like enjoy it, but I but it's really important to feel like things have a place. The daily flow where they go in the daily flow, exactly. And so that really thinking about it that way was really transformative.
SPEAKER_00I love that. And my guess is it was Ashley Williams wrote this book called Time Smart, where she she and I think that's the right time of when it came out. And she did talk about that, that if you optimize, if you value time, particularly over money, and obviously there's balance there, it does lead to greater happiness across socioeconomic groups. And I just thought that was really fast. And there are different ways to value time over money than just outsourcing. Like she even, I think she gave the example of like, I used to drive farther to the a gas station with a little bit cheaper gas. And it was the idea of like, you know, first of all, I'm spending more gas money to get to that other place and the amount of time money I'm saving for the time I'm exchanging to do that, you know, that's worth questioning, or even like taking the direct flights. Like I used to always buy the cheapest ticket and now I, you know, pay for the direct because of the time that you save and all that kind of thing. It's just there are a lot of ways to value time over money. And I my guess is that's her book. And it was it is really, I think freeing in a permission giving way to some some people sometimes in a valuable way.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, we want to maximize our time when actually sometimes that maximizing, it's like it's okay to eat the same thing for breakfast every morning, but not think about it. Not have to think about it, or like have a little less, you know, you don't have to have some new creative thing for I'm thinking food because I love food, but you know, for dinner every night, you can have the tried and true tried and choose simple, something that you don't have to think about. We don't always have to be maximizing. We can, in fact, just do what works.
SPEAKER_02And that kids like the routine, they like familiarity. You know, we're trying to give them all these novel experiences. They actually like something that they know what to expect a lot of times, and mostly our presence in a lot of ways. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00I I couldn't agree more. And I think that we I don't like victim blaming in the sense of like, it's it's I think women do need to share the load and and or have more support and all this kind of stuff. And I think we have to catch ourselves when we are making our own lives harder. Like I do look at my the what the meals my parents cook, far more simple. You know, like ground turkey with a jar of salsa and like some kale on the side. And I'm like, why do I feel like I need to make this like totally crazy meal?
SPEAKER_02It's probably a conversation of social media, I bet, would be incorporated here. It's a whole nother talk, Kelly.
SPEAKER_00That's actually something I meant to say when you were talking about also the pressure we new moms feel to do perfect. Turn off. Turn it off, get off social media. Stop following it, stop following people and get off entirely if you need to, because it's it really did a number on me. And I just looking back, I'm like, because you're sitting there in the dark, just scrolling, you know, scrolling, scrolling. It's just like warning, it's awful. No, it is so awful. Yeah, I would just be sitting there nursing, just like on social media. So I just think that sometimes we really have this all or nothing approach, especially like high achieving women. Like I, you know, I shared that I got back into running after like eight years off of with kids. I joined Orange Theory and I was doing it once a week. And the comments, I mean, people were always kind. Like I have a great community on Instagram, but there were people like, and you can build up. And like, or like, oh, I caught myself being like once a week, like, what's even the point? I was like, guys, I just shared I haven't run in eight years, and now I'm running for half an hour straight. And to me, what's interesting is not, I mean, I'm fine. I like a I really own that decision. It's is I still do it only once a week. It's perfect for me. But we all hold ourselves to that standard. And I think it's really important to realize whoa, am I like demanding that I run four times a week after not running for eight years or the equivalent of that in my life? And like, let's let's just catch ourselves when we're holding ourselves to that standard. Cause to me, I really love when I discover something on the time management front is my quote unquote fault, because that means I do have control on it and I can fix it. And so there's so much out of our control that when we find those areas, like if you're choking yourself up on deadlines at work or things like that, that for no reason we beat ourselves. Yeah, for no reason.
SPEAKER_02This was huge in your course, Kelly. Because you said you were such a people pleaser. You would say that you could get it done two weeks sooner than they even needed it. Yeah. And you were killing yourself and they didn't even need it. Yeah. That was huge.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. I when I was a new associate in Boston, you know, just being like the eager first year, I'd be like, I can get that to you tomorrow. I can get that to you by Monday. I can, you know, do all these things. And in my head, I'm like, if I don't do this, I can work at night and then I could do this on the weekend and all this kind of stuff. And I was burning out. And I was like, well, let me just add a day and see what happens. And they would still, same answer, great. And I was like, oh my gosh. I have been doing this to myself. So I would add another day and add another day, and it was still great. And occasionally there'd be pushback, but it was usually pushback. They'd want it, you know, still two days later than I would have originally had offered, like back when I first started. And I I think that it's easy to beat ourselves up when we realize things like, oh, I'm doing this to myself, but just spin it to like this means I get to fix it and like get to play with it and get creative. And that's awesome. Like now we can change it going forward. And I just think that's whenever we can find areas, quote unquote, that are our fault, we should take advantage of those.
SPEAKER_02So hard to summarize your course because it is so nuanced in that way. I think it impacts a lot of different, it really touches on reconciling your own demands on yourself and then also letting go of things that you don't need to be doing, but also giving people the executive functioning skills that they don't necessarily have within them. And we were chatting before, as we wrap up here, and Rebecca was saying that when she was writing her book, every morning from five to seven, she would write her book. And so in other free time or available time, downtime, she wasn't feeling like she had to scramble to write the book. And I think having that structured, very clear space, because one of the beauties of what you taught us is that you it's important to schedule in the fun too. It wasn't just about maximizing productivity. In fact, I felt that it was quite the opposite. And when Rebecca had approached me to ask about doing this podcast, I had just done your course, or I might have still been doing it. And so I was really able to lay out my week in a very clear way. And obviously, this is something that we both feel so. So passionate about sharing our expertise.
SPEAKER_00Yes.
SPEAKER_02And I was able to say, wow, here is this fun creative outlet that I would love to say yes to. And now I can see very plainly that I actually can say yes.
SPEAKER_00Yes. And I'll say that kind of tying some of the things we've been talking about, there was another New York Times article back in 2016, I think, that was summarizing a published study. And they found that when you reduce cognitive load and put down mental load, your ideas do get crisper, do get more creative. You are smarter. And I think that having the freedom to do the things you want to do, like these creative pursuits, and then also have less mental load to bring creativity and mental like you can bring your intellectual and creative A game when it your brain's not clogged up with all the logistics. So true. It's really it's powerful and in a way that people can hear it and be like, oh, that sounds rigid, or you know, whatever. The point is we're just trying to set down the mental load into something outside of ourselves that we get to play with and then plan realistically. Yeah. So I love that you felt that.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and live the life that you would love to live. You're you're creating space and time to do the things that bring you joy and fill you up, fill your cup, which I think before I would have not thought that I had the bandwidth, but now I had so much clarity about the fact that I did. I'm so happy I did.
SPEAKER_01I love that. It's interesting, Kelly, because you say it's like, okay, so it feels rigid, but I could imagine that once you start implementing this, actually there's much more room for flexibility. You could always change the calendar. It's not like it's in stone. This is a quick edit. And actually, the overload of mental load does tend to make us overwhelmed. And that makes us less flexible, less able to say yes to things, like even to our the things that might we might, from a philosophical perspective, think are really important. Like, so for instance, like saying yes to something that our kids want to do that we're like, no, I can't do that. I have to cook this, you know, three-course meal, and this is what I have to do, or I have to do whatever that actually having a little bit more freedom there from the mental load, I could imagine would also make you much more present in the day-to-day.
SPEAKER_00It it is one of those things that sounds counterintuitive, but I completely agree with you that I there are people who say, you know, calendar things and then you live and die by it. For me, it's like if you don't want to do something, you know, just find a new home for it, move it around. And now you have just a different version of a plan. It's like just another version. And for me, that was hugely freeing because I am being just as spontaneous as I used to be. But I'm actually enjoying the things I'm spontaneous for more because I see, okay, this other plan can still work. There are times where I'm like, oh, I really actually have to do this. I can't shift. But 5% of the time, you know, most of the time you can just create this new plan. Where back before I used this method, I would be like, I don't want to do that. I just need to take a nap or something. But the whole time I'm lying there, I'm like, should I be doing that thing? Is that thing gonna get done? Should, you know, what happens if I can't get that done later? Can't do I have time to get that later? Like, there's that just like anxious feeling. We're using a method where you all we're doing is getting it out of our heads, which is what's holding it all anyway. Even if it's a to-do list, a post-inode, all that, we're reconciling it in our heads and we're just getting it out in front of us. And that is, I I'm a big paper lover, but I'm a big digital calendar proponent because you just move things around. You drag and drop, move it around, don't spend time making it look good again. It just you get to go keep living the life. And with that clarity, it allows you to really be more present, more focused at work or whatever you're looking for.
SPEAKER_01Okay, I'm sold. So how do people find you? Um sounds great. Sign me up.
SPEAKER_00Uh my website is kellynoland.com and I'm on Instagram a lot at it's like underscore Kellynolan underscore. And I have a podcast called The Bright Method. And I just love helping women enjoy the lives that they have worked so hard to build. It's just an incredibly rewarding thing. And thank you for having me and getting to share about it. Thank you, Kelly. Thank you so much.
SPEAKER_02Do the best. Thank you for listening to Under the Hood. If you liked this episode, please take a minute and leave us a review. And we'd love to hear from you. If you have any ideas for future episodes, please let us know.